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muttonboy
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:06 pm Post subject: Cause/Effect |
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So it is clear (the writer's have stated as much) that it's not time travel......SOOOO it's Cause/Effect going both ways??
There is NO time travel, just a life that has a series of Cause/Effect events that play both ways. (Yeah, I can't quite grasp it either.) But that's LOST as a whole, no? Flash backs. Flash forwards. The ORDER doesn't matter. |
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robc
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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reminds me of slaughterhouse five a bit |
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Chris in Fort Worth
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Location: Fort Worth, TX
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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So how does the arc of this episode mesh with the overall arc of the Desmond/Penny arc? i.e. what year did they pose for the picture? did they reconcile at some point during the 8 years spanning this episode? Please someone explain this to me...
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muttonboy
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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I believe they posed for the picture, then fought over money, etc, and Desmond tossed the ring into the water...THEN Desmond walked past a sign that was promoting Army Recruitment...so I think the picture was before he joined the Army...which I assume he was kicked out of because of his "madness" (Which apparently was caused by future events)...ouch, my head hurts... |
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Chris in Fort Worth
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Location: Fort Worth, TX
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| muttonboy wrote: |
| I believe they posed for the picture, then fought over money, etc, and Desmond tossed the ring into the water...THEN Desmond walked past a sign that was promoting Army Recruitment...so I think the picture was before he joined the Army...which I assume he was kicked out of because of his "madness" (Which apparently was caused by future events)...ouch, my head hurts... |
Yeah that makes sense, thanks. Still...
When is it that Penny tracks him down while he is training for the boat race?
I'm just confused because she seemed completely done with him in this episode, but it seems like somewhere during that 8 year period they were together...
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"I dust a bit...in addition, I am at the moment writing a lengthy indictment against our century. When my brain begins to reel from my literary labors, I make an occasional cheese dip."
~ Ignatius J. Reilly |
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Matt Lafferty
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Location: Point Pleasant, NJ
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris in Fort Worth wrote: |
When is it that Penny tracks him down while he is training for the boat race?
I'm just confused because she seemed completely done with him in this episode, but it seems like somewhere during that 8 year period they were together... |
After a very quick scan of the Desmond page on Lostpedia (which is my way of saying I could have misread), it appears that Des was on the island for three years of button pushing--then the crash happened. So he started the solo boat race (ahh, remember when we thought it was a solar boat race? Lostcasts #1 or so!) sometime in 2001.
Also in Lostpedia, in reference to the earlier Desmond timey-flashbacks, "according to the producers, Desmond really did travel to his past, and the year of the events he relived was 1996."
So I'd propose this timeline (though it could have errors, 'cause it's late!): Desmond the monk is pre-1996. He meets Penny, and the big breakup is 1996. He joins the Army, and is in it for four years (the jail time perhaps doesn't effect his overal service time... that's assuming the Brits do four year chunks as us Yanks do). 2000 he gets out of the army, gets the money offer from Mr. Widmore to stay away from Penny. Desmond swears to prove his worth, etc, and by 2001 gets Libby's boat--around that time is when Penny makes contanct in the arena where Jack is running. He sails, crashes, pushes the button for three years, until 2004. He doesn't push the button, 815 crashes, and here we are.
Factor in a tweak of a few months, and it all should add up, methinks!
Edit on 3/2: According to Wikipedia, British Army "enlisted soldiers are not normally permitted to leave until they have served at least 4 years."
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"So we saved the world together for a while, and that was lovely." --Desmond
Last edited by Matt Lafferty on Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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shiftybench
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:41 am Post subject: |
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That sounds about right to me Matt. I am Scottish but I have no idea how long Brits stay in the army for.
The point made about Penny meeting Desmond before the race is valid though. Does the 1996 meeting now mean that the one at the stadium no longer happens? Daniel says you can't change the future but Desmond has proven that you can at least delay events with his saving of Charlie, so does he meet Penny at a different time? Or does he not meet her and the events since have prevented them talking again till now? Their 'meeting' was delayed till the Christmas call, maybe?
I couldn't be any more confused....  |
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Samsonisbad
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: |
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I think that they still met before the boat race. Doesn't Penny say that she has been looking for him for 3 years. Why would she be looking for him if they haven't had any contact for 5 years and all of the sudden she is feverishly searching for him for 3 years? That wouldn't make much sense. |
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robc
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:52 am Post subject: |
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the missing piece is when Penny encounters Des at the stadium. At that point Penny was engaged to marry someone else. At the same time, Des had also entered her father's race and was training. She probably found out about the race, got worried for him bc of the danger, and had her second thoughts. That's why she tracks him down to the stadium. At that point, he insists he has to go. So when he doesn't finish the race, she keeps looking for him because she's still in love with him and has nothing better to do with her millions. |
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Chris In Oly
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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The key elements with the Desmond seem to be:
As posted by someone else, '96 Desmond flashed to the future. '96 Desmond does not know that he will see Penny accidentally between '96 and the boat race. He promises not to contact her and does not expect her to contact him. So '96 Desmond has no idea about the intervening years, just that in 8 years he will need to call her to not go crazy.
2. The show, per the Hawkings lady, there is a course correction - you can change actions based upon the flashes, but there is some force that conspires to cause the original path to keep happening. Charlie is the example, he still died regardless of Desmond preventing it bunches of times. |
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shiftybench
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Samsonisbad wrote: |
| I think that they still met before the boat race. Doesn't Penny say that she has been looking for him for 3 years. Why would she be looking for him if they haven't had any contact for 5 years and all of the sudden she is feverishly searching for him for 3 years? That wouldn't make much sense. |
That's a fair point and I agree with you but she loves him, if she discovered that he went missing, it is feasible that she would still look for him even if they hadn't spoke for 2 years. Love conquers all and all that but you are probably right. |
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ebonX
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| muttonboy wrote: |
So it is clear (the writer's have stated as much) that it's not time travel......SOOOO it's Cause/Effect going both ways??
There is NO time travel, just a life that has a series of Cause/Effect events that play both ways. (Yeah, I can't quite grasp it either.) But that's LOST as a whole, no? Flash backs. Flash forwards. The ORDER doesn't matter. |
It's "Consciousness Time-Travel" ... only one's "soul" can travel back/forwards in time, but not one's body, which fits into the Theory of Relativity & the idea of Minkowski Space-Time.
From a cause & effect point of view, it's the same difference ... I think that Desmond (and maybe Daniel) are factors in a Causal Loop right now.
| shiftybench wrote: |
| That sounds about right to me Matt. I am Scottish but I have no idea how long Brits stay in the army for. |
According to Lostpedia, Desmond joined the Royal Scots Borderers, not the British Army ... How long is one's commission in the Scottish military?
| Chris In Oly wrote: |
| The show, per the Hawkings lady, there is a course correction - you can change actions based upon the flashes, but there is some force that conspires to cause the original path to keep happening. Charlie is the example, he still died regardless of Desmond preventing it bunches of times. |
According to Novikov's Self-Consistency Principle, any event following any time-travelling event (earliest event thus far is Desmond in "Flashes Before Your Eyes" - circa 1996) must happen exactly as it does to prevent a paradox from occurring ... Based on this principle, one could make the argument that Desmond was "fated" to save Charlie until his ultimate fate (end of S3). If he does not follow that exact series of events, the Island is not found by the Freighties --> Desmond does not flash (1996 <--> 2004) while leaving the Island --> Desmond does not visit Daniel at Oxford in 1996 --> Daniel never goes to the Island in 2004.
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Mark B
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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ebonX
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark B wrote: |
The Royal Scots Borderers are part of the British Army.
However they were formed in 2006 when other regiments merged. One of which was the Royal Scots. I thought he was in the Royal Scots Regiment which was formed in 1633.
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Sorry shiftybench! You can blame it on my American ignorance ... 
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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It's cool, dude, I didn't know it either |
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shiftybench
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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That was me, I didn't know you could post without signing in,lol. |
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