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Mark B
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Location: Perth, WA (via Texas and UK)
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:34 pm Post subject: Time Paradox and a bit of heracy |
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There is an apparent time paradox in that Des gets intructions from the future for his past self. He only goes to see 96 Faraday because 04 Faraday tells him to. In 96 he would not have gone because 04 Faraday did not exist. So time travel must happen, or according to Faraday it's conciousness travel. However 96 Faraday wrote Des as his constant in his diary so Des must have gone back in real time r Faraday could not have written in his diary. Unless of course by sending 96 Des to see him the from 04 Faraday changed the past. With as I understand it is impossible.
My mind is pretty fried. I probably need to watch it again, maybe I'll see something I missed first time around.
Anyhow, lots of numbers references.
Widmore buying the logbook from the Black Rock -- important or not ? Is this how he finds the island ? Did they say it sailed in 1845 ?
Who is their freind on the freighter who opened the door ? Micheal ? Bens man (if it's not Micheal) ? Frank ? The mysterious captain ?
Ok here's the heracy, I guess most people would rate that very highly but for me it was good but not great. It filled out Des's back story and there was a nice scene between Des and Penny but nothing much actually happened to move the story along, lots of potential for science 'geeks' to do their thing.
OK they got to the boat which is prretty big, nah huge. Only thing I can say is that I thought they'd drag the will he/won't he die out for a couple of episodes. They seem to have put that one to bed.
Acting by Des was great.
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muttonboy
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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For your first point, I can only offer what I write in the Cause/Effect post:
There is NO time travel, just a life that has a series of Cause/Effect events that play both ways. Flash backs. Flash forwards. The ORDER doesn't matter...the events of your life are a singularity.
For me the episode was great because the entire time I was glued to the screen thinking, "What the F#%K!" |
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Chris in Fort Worth
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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Ok here's the heracy, I guess most people would rate that very highly but for me it was good but not great. It filled out Des's back story and there was a nice scene between Des and Penny but nothing much actually happened to move the story along, lots of potential for science 'geeks' to do their thing.
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Not heresy, but I do disagree with you and feel the episode was great. I especially liked that it was self-contained, but also because Desmond's story is so compelling.
I got the same kind of feeling about the group on the boat as I do about the other 4 freighties: a mish mash of random folks as opposed to a well organized team. Although the doctor seemed to have his shit together, so who knows?
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Matt Lafferty
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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Mark,
My brain is pretty fried too at the moment (I swear after I click submit on this post I'm going to bed!). That said, I must disagree that the episode didn't move things along! Here's a quick list:
+Time issues absolutely positively confirmed. I think that this is huge and we'll all have to devote some brain time combing the past seasons for how this might effect things.
--Ponder time for the time issue effect on Michael and Walt.
+Insight into the freighter: size, some sense of hierarchy, etc
--Ponder time as to who the captain is, who Ben's helper is, and who damaged the radio room.
+Strengthened literary reference to Penny as a modern Penelope, wife of Ulysses in the Oddesy. Homer's Penelope stayed at home and tried not to remarry due to an everlasting love; Lost's Penelope is out looking for her Ulysses (Des), due to an everlasting love.
+Comfirmation of how much time is off from island to the real world: On the boat, it's Christmas Eve, which give or take is what John calculated in the last podcast. We're talking a difference of hours, not days, weeks, months, or years.
And goodnight!
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Mark B
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:01 am Post subject: |
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Well I'm going to sleep on it but I'd missed the off island date. Perhaps this was better than I thought --- still think there is a time paradox wether the 'mind' travels or not.
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Lost in Nevada
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:19 am Post subject: |
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According to the calendar on the ship the date is Dec. 24, 2004
Any ideas about why 4 dates on the freighter's calendar WEREN'T crossed off? October 20, 21, 22, & 23 aren't crossed off. |
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shiftybench
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:21 am Post subject: |
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I thought it was a brilliant episode. Fisher Stevens was wasted though, thought they'd use him more. And Henry Ian Cusack was fantastic in this episode, it's always a shock to see Des with short hair  |
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Mark B
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:55 am Post subject: |
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OK I've slept on it, thought about it and watched it again and I was wrong. This is a great episode. My mind was too fried the first time, now it's just a bit melted.
I still say there is a time paradox. Even if it's just the concious mind that travels back in time as Faraday says it makes no difference. Des still changed the past by going back and interacting with Faraday.
How does 96Des know about what Faraday told him in 2004 ? I get how 04 Des can remember the phone number because he has gone from the past to the present. But again has Des changed the past by going to see Penny in 96. In 2004 has Penny been waiting for him all this time but didn't Widmore tell Des when he got out of army prison she was getting married to someone else ? Is Widmore trying to manipulate Des into doing things ? I didn't get why Widmore was much nicer to Des in this episode -- in the past (or future) he's been a total arse to Des. Why now give Des the address of his daughter that he so badly does not want Des to be around ?
I can't figure out how there is a work around unless they are saying that Des is living in both times at the same time and he's not time traveling per se just, hell I don't know what to call it or even how to explain it.
One other thing .... how did Des know to go to the auction house to find Widmore ?
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Last edited by Mark B on Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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robc
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:17 am Post subject: slaughterhouse 5 |
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I'm sticking to my Slaughterhouse 5 theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughterhouse_five).
Desmond, like Billy Pilgrim, is a poor excuse for a soldier who becomes unstuck in time by a significant event. Billy's event was the Dresden bombing. Des's event was the hatch implosion.
Billy was a chaplain's assistant. Desmond was sort of a failed monk. Billy takes shelter in a deep cellar. Des takes shelter in the hatch.
The time travellers in S5 "have seen every instant of their lives already; they believe that they can't choose to change anything about their fate, but can choose to focus on any moment in their lives that they wish."
Desmond knows about Faraday because he can remember the future. Just as past memories feel vague and cloudy, so do Desmond's future memories. That's also why future Desmond suddently remembers Penny's number and Daniel's memory has been all messed up. |
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Mark B
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: |
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According to the Official LOST Podcast 96Des has been travelling forward not 04Des going back. Which kind of removes all the event change paradoxes that would occur the other way around.
04Des was just not aware of the 96Des time travelling until the hatch explosion and the funky copter trip. Clearly 96Des could affect 04Des and not change the timeline as the timeline does not exist.
It all makes sense now, well it does kind of.
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Chris In Oly
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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I think the idea of 'course corrections' as explained by the Hawkins woman is what is going on.
She indicated that you can change time and fate, but that the universe conspires to make sure the same thing happens.
For example, I did not remember seeing the red ink 'Desmond is my constant' in Faradays note book the first time he flipped through it. It seemed to be in red and would have stood out.
So the course corrections made sure that Faraday and Desmond would end up in the same place - but until '96 Desmond changed the past by seeing '96 Faraday, the note had not/would not be written.
I don't think they are showing time travel as steady state; meaning that if you were to travel back in time - you already have and this is the future based upon that travel.
They are presenting the time travel as messy, with course corrections fixing changes. |
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Mark B
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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I think what's happening is that as 96 Des is travelling forward in time he can't affect the future because he is there in it. 04 Des is 'overwritten' by 96 Des and so does not know what is going on as he has not experienced 96-04. As Des has a constant he will be OK.
The only flaw in this plan is if Des was to go further in time first (say 2007) then go to 2004. But I guess that's when the course correction kicks in.
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MEDuell
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| Lost in Nevada wrote: |
According to the calendar on the ship the date is Dec. 24, 2004
Any ideas about why 4 dates on the freighter's calendar WEREN'T crossed off? October 20, 21, 22, & 23 aren't crossed off. |
They were crossed off, but they were crossed off in yellow. It's clearly visible in the high-res screencaps. |
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DannyBoy
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| if you were to travel back in time - you already have and this is the future based upon that travel. |
you hit the nail on the head i believe
that is why daniel didnt tell des about needing a constant over the phone. he knew des was his constant but needed to make a connection with him in '96, n thats why he told him to find him in '96.
daniel was smiling in the scene at the end, happy that he'd found his constant in both times |
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Mark B
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: |
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OK I still think 96Des is jumping forward in time to 2004 and he is taking the place of 04Des. Hence the confusion for 96Des as he has no idea what is going on, he has not lived 96-04.
I liken it to accidently over-writing a computer file. The system we use at work somehow saves the old file somewhere else as it is overwritten so that if idiots like me accidently overwite their work it can be recovered but it's a hidden file I can't see directly. The constant is the link that tells Des's brain where to retrieve the old (in our case 2004) self from.
The only flaw I can see is that Faraday told 96Des in 2004 the correct settings for the machine and 96Des remembered those when he was back in 1996 and so in a way Faraday affected the past as even if earlier in the past (maybe 1997) he (Faraday) had worked out the settings (which he must have done to give them to 96Des in 2004) he got them sooner from 96Des. How does that not affect the past ?
How can 96Des change the future when we know it has already happened ?
The get out would be that 96Des changed the future and there can only be one actual future (but many possible futures) and that actual future is the future we've seen and it's just a loop.
But then why can 96Des get info from 04Faraday to give to 96Faraday to change the future 04 when Ms. Hawkings has already told 96Des that he can't change the past which would change the future as the universe course corrects back to the original path.
Unless the course correction is that 96Des must tell 96Faraday what 04Faraday needs to know so 96Des can go to the island.
But then how does 04Faraday get the settings ? Must be from 96Faraday who found them later, but then we are back to the whole 96Faraday finding the settings earlier than he would have done if 96Des had not told him and so the past is changed.
Oh my head hurts.
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Mark B.
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ebonX
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| DannyBoy wrote: |
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| if you were to travel back in time - you already have and this is the future based upon that travel. |
you hit the nail on the head i believe |
I think this is a key point to remember when thinking about timelines & time-travel in LOST ...
In this ep, the 2004 (with Daniel on the Island & Desmond as his constant) we see is the future that is a direct result of Desmond's time travel between 96-04. This idea is easier to understand when thinking about '96 Des travelling to the future (2004), but is still true when '04 Des had travelled back to 1996 (see "Flashes Before Your Eyes").
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