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Craig Workman
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: Daniel's Island Clock Experiment |
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-- Copied from a couple earlier Message Thread posts --
I'm trying desperately to wrap my head around Daniel's Multiple Clocks experiment. First off, I really wish Daniel would have confirmed the time he had on his clock with the time Regina had on the Freighter before ever launching the Payload. If the Island is fundamentally displaced in time, wouldn't a comparison between Daniel's clock and a clock on the Freighter have been sufficient to establish this disconnect? Daniel's clock made a trip from Freighter to Island just like the Payload did, right? Why would the time shift only affect one of the clocks sent to the island?
But than, if the Island is fundamentally displaced in time, than why did Daniel and Regina's sat phone conversation go so smoothly? Shouldn't there have been a delay if the Island itself is off relative to the Freighter? I don't think it's the Island itself that's off (i.e. 90 days on the island is 90 days in the real world), it seems to be something about the journey that's just a little wonky here.
I still don't think that the Island itself is on a different timeline than the real world. It's passing through some force field en route to the island that's resulting in wonky clocks and other odd happenings. Daniel and the Payload's failure to match up is probably due to the fact that Daniel and the Payload each came to the Island on different bearings. Still can't explain Walt's aging though, which has got to be related to this.
I'm just confusing myself here. Anyone have any ideas? |
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The Atomium
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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I think it has something to do with the theory of relativity ie: clocks in a stronger gravitational field move at a slower rate, like a more extreme version of the experiment where two clocks, one on the ground and one flown around the world in a plane move at different speeds.
However, I am a total layman when it comes to this kind of thing so I'm afraid I can't explain how it may be relevant to Lost. Maybe there's a singularity of some other gravitational anomaly that is local to Craphole Island?? |
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ebonX
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| If the Island is fundamentally displaced in time, wouldn't a comparison between Daniel's clock and a clock on the Freighter have been sufficient to establish this disconnect? Daniel's clock made a trip from Freighter to Island just like the Payload did, right? Why would the time shift only affect one of the clocks sent to the island? |
Simply comparing Daniel's clock & a clock on the Freighter would not work, since they are referenced to the same source (i.e. "real world" time). Daniel's watch is referenced to the "real world" even while on the Island ... Think about crossing into another time zone, your clock does not automically change time (& I'm not counting clocks on cell phones ...  ). You have to change it manually.
| Quote: |
| But than, if the Island is fundamentally displaced in time, than why did Daniel and Regina's sat phone conversation go so smoothly? Shouldn't there have been a delay if the Island itself is off relative to the Freighter? I don't think it's the Island itself that's off (i.e. 90 days on the island is 90 days in the real world), it seems to be something about the journey that's just a little wonky here. |
My thinking is that the sat phone conversations work fine because they use radio waves (which are electro-magnetic waves) which, according to quantum physics, behave differently in space-time than do physical objects.
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| I still don't think that the Island itself is on a different timeline than the real world. |
I agree ... I think the Island is in the same timeline as the real world ... The Island simply exists in a space-time reality that is ~30min behind the real world reality.
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| Still can't explain Walt's aging though, which has got to be related to this. |
My belief is that Walt is talking to Locke from his future self in the real world ... I do not think he aged 3+ years once he left the Island. |
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Lost Addict
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:58 pm Post subject: Time Shift |
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I have a crazy theory - what if the island is basically the equivalent of a "particle" in a "particle accelerator" (e.g., lab or some ship on earth) of sorts and is traveling at or near light speed? According to Einstein, objects moving at light speed experience a slowdown in time - this would explain Faraday's discovery with the payload. There is also a note about twins in this theory (one twin leaves earth and when he returns from his light speed travels he is younger than his twin who stayed on earth) - maybe a Bad Twin tie in? Perhaps Ben has a twin who remained in earth time and is older and is trying to find/kill him? Maybe that is Jacob.
This concept of the light speed accelerator would also create a magnetic field and explain the light distortion. Maybe the button was the mechanism to ensure that energy continues to be given so that the process continues - when they stopped pushing it, the island slowed down enough for someone to notice it, until the fail safe was turned. Why would someone set something like this up? To put people on it and buy time to figure out how to fix the upcoming end of the world, which has already started. If the earth is going to end in 5 years, and you have no clue how to solve it, what better way to buy time than to create an environment where time travels slower so you can figure out what to do.
Perhaps Jacob and his cabin are actually on earth and every so often the cabin appears when the island particle collides with the cabin's location on earth. The powder just marks one of the locations where it is known to appear every so often.
815 probably just collided with the island at the right place/time (remember Ben was surprised).
Might also explain the polar bear skeleton.
I know it is crazy - thoughts? |
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Craig Workman
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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This could get complicated if we start quote-quoting here. I'm going to try hard to avoid it, and summarize at the end.
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Daniel's watch is referenced to the "real world" even while on the Island ... Think about crossing into another time zone, your clock does not automically change time (& I'm not counting clocks on cell phones ... ). You have to change it manually.
...and later
The Island simply exists in a space-time reality that is ~30min behind the real world reality. |
Untrue. Whatever happened to the Payload's clock also should have happened to Daniel's clock earlier when they crashlanded onto the Island. The "real world" time shouldn't be reflected by either clock once they've passed through whatever in coming to the island. I think that it's their angle of approach that caused them the relative 31 minute difference. The "real world" is probably +/- something else entirely, and probably not more than a few hours either way.
| Quote: |
| My thinking is that the sat phone conversations work fine because they use radio waves (which are electro-magnetic waves) which, according to quantum physics, behave differently in space-time than do physical objects. |
We'll probably never know one way or another 'according to quantum physics,' but I'm willing to accept that as a narrative device, satellite phone transmissions are unaffected by this "variable time dilatiion force field of kinda-but-not-really-doom." But wait... we had to accept that a radio transmission could block satellite phone transmission. Hm. |
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Bryan from the Dena
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject: Gravitational Time Dilation |
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So I am not sure if anyone has referenced Gravitational time dilation (GTD) yet, but if not here is a real quick explanation:
The higher the gravity the slower time passes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilation
So if I understand planetary gravity correctly, gravity increases the closer we get to the core of the planet. So if the island fit in with the hollow earth theory it could explain the time difference. This also makes it easier to justify, we don't need to have some sort of field that everyone has to pass through, rather the further into the planet we go the slower time gets. So that would mean that the boat is closer to the "exit" than the island so it isn't receiving as much of the GTD. Also this could explain the seeming immortality of some of the natives. What if hypothetically they know of other places deeper in the hollow earth. If they were to go there, they would age even slower than the people on the island.
This is just what I think
~Bryan from the Dena |
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Craig Workman
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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Yea. Strange gravity can warp space time. And something is warping space time. So what I guess I've been trying to say is that I do think the Island is inside of something that does strange things with time, but I still think that time on the lisland is on the exact same time line as the world outside the island. |
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Bryan from the Dena
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: Single Time Line |
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| Craig Workman wrote: |
| Yea. Strange gravity can warp space time. And something is warping space time. So what I guess I've been trying to say is that I do think the Island is inside of something that does strange things with time, but I still think that time on the lisland is on the exact same time line as the world outside the island. |
I agree about a single time line. If they try and explain it as multiple timelines converging it just complicates things too much.
I think Walt is the most apparent proof of the Gravity Time Dilation (GTD) for us though. We know Walt is older, he is the only one we have seen that has seemed to age, now if he was able to leave the area that was effected by the GTD then his aging would have appeared to have been accelerated to the losties. If we are right and there is some GTD effect at play here then it is safe to assume we won't see anything related to the tsunami that occurred (since it would have happened already). Now a random thought about this, what if Desmond setting off the self destruct in the swan hatch caused the tsunami. We have no way of knowing just how bad the effects of the GTD are, but hypothetically if Desmond didn't destroy the hatch would the world have seen even greater damage on a more global scale? So in reality Desmond did save the world by pressing the button all those years.
Just a thought
~Bryan from the Dena |
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wedgeley
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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What if time is travelling at a different speed on the island? The newcomers have been there a matter of hours and in that time the difference is 30 mins. Daniel's reaction is that this is bigger than he thought.
Radios working in sync is interesting - perhaps the ship is within the boundary for time difference but payload was launched remotely from outside? |
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muttonboy
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig Workman wrote: |
| Untrue. Whatever happened to the Payload's clock also should have happened to Daniel's clock earlier when they crashlanded onto the Island. The "real world" time shouldn't be reflected by either clock once they've passed through whatever in coming to the island. I think that it's their angle of approach that caused them the relative 31 minute difference. The "real world" is probably +/- something else entirely, and probably not more than a few hours either way. |
Just a thought...but if Dan HAD experienced some sort of time delay when he arrived, he wouldn't have know it, right? The time on his watch would seem to be the right time to him, but would in fact be different from REAL time (Regina's clock, say). So that when the payload came in 31 minutes late, that was 31 minutes later than DAN'S time - which is in itself later than REAL time (Regina's on the freighter). Does this make sense? (I mean, I know it doesn't make sense, but does it make sense in terms of the problem?) |
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jg
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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My pet theory is: that time on the Island passes more slowly. Jack's odd statement: ... "I can't believe it was 100 days ago....". It seemed forced and out of place for him to have said that...so I'm taking it as a clue.
Therefore, Richard Alpert doesn't seem to age. (Perhaps Ben has aged more quickly as he has spent time off-Island.) It also supports my claim that some of the Others are Black Rock survivors and even older.
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Last edited by jg on Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ebonX
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Untrue. Whatever happened to the Payload's clock also should have happened to Daniel's clock earlier when they crashlanded onto the Island. The "real world" time shouldn't be reflected by either clock once they've passed through whatever in coming to the island. I think that it's their angle of approach that caused them the relative 31 minute difference. The "real world" is probably +/- something else entirely, and probably not more than a few hours either way. |
But the same thing did occur to both the Payload's & Daniel's clocks, they both remained in reference to "real world" time ... In essence, Daniel ran the "Twin Paradox" experiment ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox
Relative to the Payload, its trip took very little time (under 1min), while relative to the Island (and Daniel), the Payload's trip took over 30min.
Now, if you extrapolate the "Twin Paradox" results, one would conclude that Island time exists ~60x times faster than time in the "real world" (and thus supports Bryan's theory) ... The only problem with that theory is that then less than 2 days has passed in the "real world" in ~100days of Island time.
Which brings me back to the time-shifting theory ... It's the only theory that explains both Daniel's experiment & maintains the timeline of Off-Island events. |
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Chris in Fort Worth
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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This is all very interesting and way over my head. However, one thought did occur to me while reading this thread:
Could a similar time discrepancy in any way explain the food drop from season 2?
That's all I got.
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ebonX
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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jg
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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That's what I'm talking about.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| if Dan HAD experienced some sort of time delay when he arrived, he wouldn't have know it, right? The time on his watch would seem to be the right time to him, but would in fact be different from REAL time (Regina's clock, say). So that when the payload came in 31 minutes late, that was 31 minutes later than DAN'S time - which is in itself later than REAL time (Regina's on the freighter). Does this make sense? |
Absolutely it does. This is Lost. WE HAVE INCOMPLETE INFORMATION. There will be no extrapolating, no alternate timelines... just the occasional 'glitch' - someone gets thrown off a few hours (or weeks / months / even years?) all because of the path they came onto the island at. Case in point:
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| Now, if you extrapolate the "Twin Paradox" results, one would conclude that Island time exists ~60x times faster than time in the "real world" (and thus supports Bryan's theory) ... The only problem with that theory is that then less than 2 days has passed in the "real world" in ~100days of Island time. |
That would mean that in two days the real world baddies have covered up the crash of 815, immediately seen the radar blip of the hatch explosion, formed the team with Naomi at the lead and found their way to the Island? Not gonna buy it.
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| Time Dilation explains it all ... If you believe that time on the Island is "slowed down", rather than "time-shifted" ... |
I don't. It's the trip to and from the Island that might be affected by Time Dilation, resulting in a semi-permanent 'time-shifting'. And the path you take in and out is directly related to the amount of Dilation. That's why Daniel wanted Frank to take the same path out he came in - to cancel out whatever happened on the way in and ensure that the frieghter would be where (and when!) it was expected to be. That's what I believe we should take away from this experiment.
Stuff you can research in the theoretical academia of Wikipedia and pull from Stephen Hawkings books... That's 'weird.' But rembmer, this is Lost... it's 'far more than weird.' |
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Craig Workman
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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That last 'Guest' post was me, btw. My mistake.
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ebonX
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| It's the trip to and from the Island that might be affected by Time Dilation, resulting in a semi-permanent 'time-shifting'. And the path you take in and out is directly related to the amount of Dilation. That's why Daniel wanted Frank to take the same path out he came in - to cancel out whatever happened on the way in and ensure that the frieghter would be where (and when!) it was expected to be. That's what I believe we should take away from this experiment. |
So really, your idea is merely an extension of the "time-shifting" theory ...
(1) The "time-shifting" effect is dependent on the point of entry to the Island ... I can accept this theory (for now), as it is a reasonable explanation for the Black Rock, Yemi's Plane, Polar Bear in Tunisia, and most expecially, the DHARMA Food Drop ... I still like the Vile Vortices theory better as it explains things more completely (Black Rock in the middle of the Island, Yemi's puddle-jumper Plane, Polar Bear skeleton in Tunisia, etc.)
(2) One can cancel out any "time-shifting" effect when leaving the Island by following the exact course you used to enter the Island ... I actually really like this part of the theory to explain Walt's growth spurt. But what will happen to Sun's pregnancy (if she does, in fact, leave the Island)?!?
(3) The Island does not exist in a different timeline/reality as the "real world", but just at somepoint in the past ... I agree! |
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Chris in Oly
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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It seems to me that the island has multiple time dialation, and I liek the idea of 'Time Shifting'.
The 31 minute delay is the delay from the specific bearing that the pilot took to the isalnd - matching the payload tragectory. Faraday told the pilot to stay on course to minimize the affect, or as Ebonx suggested, cancels out the time shifting.
Perhaps Michael and Walt were sent on a course that maximized the time dialation affect.
Perhaps the Polar Bear swam off the island in a course that took it bachwards in time. |
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jg
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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I think Daniel makes the point of "the heading" clear just so the helicopter will return to the specific place because it will be visually confusing/disorienting on return or it will be "invisible" until they are in close proximity to the Island.
The radios/phones work because the signals pass at the speed of light. The time shift wouldn't mess with things going at that speed. Missles...yes.
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Chris in Fort Worth
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:00 am Post subject: |
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DO radio signals travel at the speed of light?
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jg
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:14 am Post subject: |
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radiowaves and light are electromagnetic radiation, all of which travels at "c".
The mention of gravity and its affect on time has deeply intrigued me. And I have therefore "Wiki'd":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilation
This now has me thinking that "entering the numbers/pushing the Button" was a "degaussing" mechanism for the Island. But not for magnetic field build up but for gravitational field build up.
Hmmm....maybe I'll post this in "Theroies" too.
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Chris in Fort Worth
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:49 am Post subject: |
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So, in essence, any 'thing' traveling to or from the island will be effected by the time dilation, where as any non-mass (light, radiowaves, etc.) will not and thus will reach the island in real time? Again, can we assume based on this that the food drop in Season 2 could have been initiated prior to the 'purge' and simply arrived 'late'?
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"I dust a bit...in addition, I am at the moment writing a lengthy indictment against our century. When my brain begins to reel from my literary labors, I make an occasional cheese dip."
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GatorRock
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:13 am Post subject: |
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Folks-
Light IS being affected- please remember the comment about how the light is falling in an unexpected way-
Have we ever seen a sunrise or a sunset on the island?
whether it is because of the way the island is traveling or the forces affecting the island, the light is being changed.
So add that onto the time chage and rethink... |
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ebonX
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Light IS being affected- please remember the comment about how the light is falling in an unexpected way- |
Light is being affected by the "EM Anomaly", just not in the same way as it does a massive body ... While any object experiences some kind of "time-shift" (relative to "real world" vs. Island time) coming to the Island, light (or I suppose any EM wave, as Daniel observes) seems to "scatter differently" on the Island.
My guess is that whatever causes the "time-shift" also causes light to be refracted or "phase-shifted" as it enters the Island. Light does not experience the same "time-shift" as objects due to the principles of quantum physics (EM waves & Massive objects behave very differently in space-time as they approach the speed of light) ... This "phase-shifting" of lightwaves could be an explanation why the FF are constantly re-calibrating the sat phone, which rolls nicely into Craig's idea that the extent of the "time-shift" is dependent upon one's point of entry to the Island ... As the sat phone's radio waves change the point of entry to the Island (by movement of satellites in Earth's orbit or by FF movement on the Island), the "phase-shifting" of the signal changes, and thus the signal would need to be re-calibrated from time to time in order to "clean up" the comm line. |
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